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Ceylon Today’s Interview with HH Younus AlGohar

6 years, 2 months ago

Ceylon Today’s Zahrah Imtiaz interviews His Holiness Younus AlGohar during his recent visit to Sri Lanka. The following is the transcript of their conversation.

You’ve been visiting Sri Lanka every year now. What is the purpose of your visits?

Our purpose is the message of love and peace. We propagate spirituality. That’s the main purpose.

How is it any different to any other sect, religion or other person propagating peace and spirituality? I mean, everybody does this. What is unique about your message?

Spirituality is not a religion. It is a practice which will involve enlightenment of the heart, enlightenment of the soul. It has nothing to do with any religion; whereas those who are promoting peace and love through religion - only the followers of that religion will listen to them. The others will not follow them; they will follow their [own] religion.

So the promotion of love and peace projected by one religion is limited; whereas spirituality is for everybody without the restriction of the any nation or any religion.

Do you belong to the Sufi sect, in which case you would be Islamic in certain aspects?

We are spiritualists. We don’t follow any particular religion. But spirituality is part of every religion, not just Islam. Spirituality has been part of every religion. Those who practised spirituality within Islam are called Sufis.

Do you categorise yourself as a Sufi?

I categorise myself as a spiritualist [who follows] the core of spirituality. I love humanity and I respect all religions. But personally I am just a spiritual person; I practise spirituality and my religion is humanity.Ceylon Interview

Today in this day and age, spirituality is seen in a very suspicious manner - because we’ve seen a lot of people [who deceive in the name of spirituality]. When everyone is saying they have The Truth, how do you tell them what the truth is? Is there a truth?

Well, it’s very simple. If I say, ‘I have an iPhone,’ and someone else says, ‘No, I have an iPhone,’ and another person says, ‘No, no - I have an iPhone,’ ask them to show it.

If I can show an iPhone, then my claim is truthful. If someone else said he had an iPhone but he failed to show his iPhone when he was asked to show it, then he was lying.

So when people say, ‘I have the truth,’ first of all people who are listening to them and who are in their following, they should be able to understand and recognise the truth.

If people do not know what the truth is and they go to so-called Gurus and they claim to have the truth, how will you see the truth when you don’t recognise the truth?

In this day and age, we have fake Gurus because the public does not have any recognition of the truth. If people know what the truth is, then they will go to these fake Gurus and demand them to show the truth. They do not know the truth themselves; this is why they are made fools out of them.

What is your proof?

I am not saying I have the truth. I am talking about spirituality. I am not claiming to have anything; I am here to tell you that I have a method - which is not new, which has been part of every religion. When this part of spirituality started to [vanish] from a religion, people from that religion started to become corrupt; they started to become extremists, terrorists and fanatics.

I want to introduce that part which is missing from every religion to every religion - so that they become good Muslims, good Christians and good Hindus. This portion which is missing from every religion is spirituality.

I suppose I should start with: what is this method?

Spirituality is the knowledge which enables your souls to be awakened and then grow in divine light.

When your souls are awakened and become sensible, then you begin to love God and understand the purpose of life. Then you begin to understand every human being in this world is the creation of the same God. You respect humanity.

When these souls which carry the five senses are in a dormant condition - they are not awakened and they do not have any sense of the divine - then you fall into the ditch of hatred. Then you categorise yourself as a strict Muslim, a strict Hindu or a strict Christian - and then you hate each other.

But when the souls are awakened, then you recognise everybody else as creation of God and you have a sense of love.

Would you say that when the soul is awakened, then a person does not feel the need to categorise themselves in a particular religion?

They do categorise themselves. For example, you are a Muslim and you succeeded to have awakened your soul. You become a good Muslim and at the same time you also respect other religions; you don’t hate them.

When your souls are awakened and you become a spiritualised man or woman, then you understand that other religions also were sent by God and you should not hate them; whereas without enlightenment of the heart and soul, you become short-sighted. You only think you are right and others are wrong.

You don’t believe in their [holy] books. You only believe in your book.

How does one get to this enlightened state?

Well, in spirituality, God’s name is used to create divine light. God’s name is implanted in the beating system of the heart and God’s name is proclaimed within the heart - and it generated divine light. With the help of divine light, the souls are awakened.

What would you say to people who do not believe in a God? Could they still have spirituality then?

There are thousands of people who believe in God yet they are naïve to God; they don’t know God and they don’t practise their religions.

For example, fake Gurus: they believe in Islam, Christianity, Hinduism or Buddhism, but what they are doing today is nothing like what their religion is teaching them.

For example, if you take a religion like Buddhism - there is no God in Buddhism. So how does a person who does not have a god reach enlightenment? Because your concept of spirituality seems to be related to the concept of God.

Of course.

So, if you do not believe in a God to start off with, then do you still have spirituality?

If people who say they do not believe in God see that their life is miserable, they are in need of help and they are looking up to somebody, then we ask them to practise this. When God’s name enters their heart and they feel the divine light and God’s love, then they will start to believe in God.

Basically you cannot be an atheist and a spiritualist. Are they two contradictory things?

Being an atheist is a very superficial thing. It has nothing to do with the souls.

You see, when the souls are awakened, you cannot remain to be an atheist.

What do you say to those people who say that it is because of religion, God, spirituality that we have wars? More people have been killed in the cause of religion than anything else.

Some people became atheists because of misunderstandings; the right message in the right meaning was not given to them. Some of the acts of God were not understandable to them so they became angry with God and then as a result of this misunderstanding and anger, they rejected the existence of God.

They’re misled, I suppose?

Sort of.

When your Spiritual Guide Gohar Shahi started in Pakistan, He was called a heretic. What do you say to those people who say that what you say is blasphemy? Because you speak of spirituality but for a lot of people, what you speak of is blasphemy. How do you win them over?

See, people who spoke against His Divine Eminence Gohar Shahi are those people who did not know their own religion. If you study the Quran, you will see that spirituality is the main theme of Islam. Without spirituality you cannot understand Islam.

Only those individuals opposed HDE Gohar Shahi and called [Him] heretic and blasphemous who didn’t understand the message of Islam, the message of Quran.

Today, do you think that Muslims themselves know, really, what Islam is?

If they knew it, they wouldn’t have been divided into 73 sects.

Do we need diversity? Is diversity allowed in the religion or is there just one way of practising Islam?

Diversity in what sense?

Is there one proper way of being a Muslim?

Of course. Islam is not a very difficult religion; it is a very simple religion. However the right way to be a Muslim is to follow the Prophet Mohamad.

And Prophet Mohammad gave people two types of knowledge: 1 - for your exterior and 2 - for your heart.

For example, there is a Hadith by Prophet Mohammad. ‘O’ sons of Adam, there is a lump of flesh in your body. If that is made right, your entire body becomes pure. If that is corrupted, then your entire body is corrupted. Remember well: it is your heart.’

According to the Quran, God said, ‘Whosoever will believe in God, God will guide his heart.’

The problem among Muslims today is that they have forgotten the knowledge of guiding the heart: how the heart should be guided.

When HDE Gohar Shahi spoke about the knowledge of the heart (how the heart should be guided), people who did not believe in Sufism, people who did not believe in spirituality, people who say that there is no knowledge of Batin (esoteric realm) in Islam, people who say that there is no knowledge of spirituality in Islam, they opposed HDE Gohar Shahi.

However the knowledge of Batin cannot be rejected. Because the Quran said that He is God of Zahir and He is God of Batin.

But some people alienate the knowledge of spirituality from Islam. They are the ones who have misled themselves and they are misleading all other Muslims in the world.

It is because of the rejection of spiritual knowledge that people are becoming terrorists, extremists and fanatics in this world. Those who practised spirituality became Sufis; they loved everybody, they never hated anybody.

If you look at all the Sufi saints from the start, none of them actually said that they were Imam Mehdi.

Because they were not Imam Mehdi.

The Sufi saints never said they were a Prophet; they always believed in the Prophet Mohammad. They were simply teachers. But Gohar Shahi is different.

Before the Prophet Mohammad, so many prophets came. None of them said they were Mohammad.

Yes, but in Islam we believe that the Prophet is the end, the Last Prophet.

Yes, the Last Prophet.

So there cannot be another prophet.

No, there cannot be another prophet.

So when Gohar Shahi says He is Imam Mehdi, what is He trying to say?

Imam Mehdi is not a prophet.

According to the Prophet Mohammad, ‘There is no prophet after me.’

That is the ultimate truth. There is no prophet after Mohammad.

But if you say, ‘Why did Gohar Shahi say He is Imam Mehdi?’ Imam Mehdi is not a prophet. Imam Mehdi has been prophesised by Prophet Mohammad himself.

Prophet Mohammad said, ‘Towards the end of the world, one person will be born from my Ahle Bait; he will be Imam Mehdi and he will fill the world with justice and peace. During this time, Jesus Christ will also emerge and he will be a helping hand to Imam Mehdi.’

We are not in the end of the world. Do you believe this is the end times?

How do you know this is not the end of the world? Why do you think that - because you are still living, still breathing?

Because people have been predicting that the world is coming to an end every year.

You’re a journalist, aren’t you? Do you read newspapers, reports from NASA?

So you believe the end of the world is coming?

You don’t have to believe it.

If somebody is slapping me, I don’t have to believe it because I can feel the pain.

Read the reports from NASA and different scientists. In the North Pole, huge icebergs are melting and the seas are soaring up. Look at climate change!

The world is using up its resources.

That is a very scientific reason for why the world will come to an end.

Of course the scientific reason will say the same thing which is predicted by God - because God is going to end this world and science will say the same thing.

But do you believe in the date, 2026? Will it be 2026?

Well, it should be 2026 unless God wants to extend it. It’s up to him.

That is the point of a prediction, isn’t it? That the world should end in 2026? What if it doesn’t?

Well, then it’s up to God. There is a reason why [it’s] 2026: because upon the commandment of God, one piece of asteroid has been sent by God. It is coming towards the planet Earth. Not only Gohar Shahi is saying it; NASA is saying the same thing.

What if it doesn’t happen?

This is just a silly question.

Does this mean that everything you believed in becomes [invalid]?

I’m not saying that this is my belief.

I’m saying this is what HDE Gohar Shahi said and this is what NASA is saying.

Now, why is HDE Gohar Shahi saying it? Because HDE Gohar Shahi has seen it spiritually.

But why is NASA saying it? Because they have seen it physically. They didn’t believe it; they have seen it.

The credibility of a person is based on something coming true or not. If you say that [this pen right here] is black, I can see it is black so I will believe that you are telling the truth.

In a scenario where the asteroid doesn’t hit in 2026, what happens to the credibility of Gohar Shahi?

NASA is saying the same thing; if it doesn’t happen, what will happen to the credibility of NASA?

NASA is always getting things wrong. But what about Gohar Shahi?

In order to see what credibility HDE Gohar Shahi has, this is not the only one criterion to judge Him.

His main mission is not to predict what is going to happen. His main mission is to enlighten you and enlighten you to a degree where you are connected to God.

So what method and what way would you like to judge Him? Do you want to judge HDE Gohar Shahi through His prediction or do you want to judge Gohar Shahi through His power of connecting you with God?

This is not the only one example by which we can judge how credible HDE Gohar Shahi is.

But then, His main role is not to predict. His main role is to connect people with God. And there are thousands of people all over the world from different religions who are connected to God, have become good people and have started to love each other. Their life has changed. From mosques to temples, from temples to churches, synagogues and Buddhist temples, He has caused people to shun hatred and adopt love.

People who were Muslims without the real concept of Islam have become good Muslims. They have developed an enormous amount of love for Prophet Mohammad. Christians who did not know Christianity, because of HDE’s spiritual knowledge and His spiritual powers, they have become good Christians. They have got connected with Jesus Christ; they have got connected with God.

So this example of thousands of people who are now becoming rightly guided - they have shunned the practice of hatred, they have adopted divine love and have learned to respect humanity - this is enough as credibility to judge HDE Gohar Shahi to be truthful.

You were chosen as the sole representative of Him. Why do you think you were the one He chose?

Because He prepared me to be His spokesman.

How did that happen?

Well, through my spiritual training. Knowledge was given to me and spirituality was given to me. I am able to carry on the message.

Why did you decide to leave everything?

I did not leave anything.

Do you still carry on day-to-day work?

Of course. I am sitting in front of you. I am not standing on the road begging people for an iPhone. I am a businessman.

How do you reconcile work? Spirituality and such?

Well, you are a journalist. At the same time, you must be the daughter of somebody. Or maybe a sister of somebody. Or maybe a wife-to-be of somebody.

In the same way, you can do justice to your profession and to your domestic life.

There is a belief that if a person is going to take the spiritual path, then he has to leave the day-to-day worries of life.

I do not know whose understanding is this. This is a misleading understanding.

How do people balance spirituality and the general stresses of life?

Spirituality is about souls. We are active with our body in our day-to-day life. But the souls are enlightened and they are self-sufficient within themselves to carry out their activities.

Spirituality does not stop you from anything. It has to do with the inside of your body, the soul. The soul will learn spirituality. There is no physical activity performed by the soul so it cannot disturb your day-to-day life.

But usually you see a religious man and then [in contrast] you see normal people in day-to-day business and things like that.

The problem is you haven’t seen spiritual people because spiritual knowledge has become extinct in this world.

There was a time when people would talk about spirituality and people would believe in spirituality. But for the past many decades, nobody talks about spirituality. This is why you cannot give examples of, ‘Look, this is a spiritual man and he has left everybody; he is living in a jungle.’

No, this is not like it. We are all spiritual people. We have businesses, we are living a good life and we did not have to shun anything.

I have a son. Obviously, I have a son because I got married.

There is this whole image of an ascetic - and that is the only way to reach enlightenment [in many people’s eyes].

You see, there is this problem between Christians and Muslims.

According to Christianity, when you want to become Godly, you have to cut yourself off from the rest of the world. You become a hermit.

In Islam, you are not permitted to become a hermit. They call it Rehbaniyah. Rehbaniyah is not allowed in Islam; it is allowed in Christianity.

What do you do in Islam? Temporarily, you seek solitude and you focus on your spiritual growth. In a few years’ time when you have acquired your spiritual target, then you come back to live a normal life. You marry, you do business, you live with people and this is upon which every saint was embarking.

So, for a particular period of time you do withdraw from society.

Yeah, for a short period of time. Even Prophet Mohammad used to go to a cave.

But for today, if you were giving advice - not everybody can go to a cave.

Not today. The message is different today.

How would that message be today?

Today it is different. The norms of spirituality have been slightly modified by His Divine Eminence Gohar Shahi. Today, you don’t have to isolate [yourself].

So what is a modern-day Sufi like?

With the help of this message of spirituality, God’s name will be implanted into your heart. In order for God’s name to enter into your heart, you are required to purify your Nafs (Self/Ego) according to Islam.

With the purification of your Nafs, God’s name would not enter your heart.  For this reason, people were forced into adopting isolation. This is why they went into jungles and they adopted austerity and all sorts of hard-core worship.

However with the slight modification of spirituality, HDE Gohar Shahi delivers God’s name into your heart, which will awaken your heart and at the same time, it will also purify your Nafs.

Purification of the Nafs was not available before unless you became isolated. With a slight modification, it is now available in your normal life.

What is the modification?

This is the modification: that you are living with your husband/wife and children - and still you will manage to purify your Nafs. It was not possible before.

How do you do it? What is the method?

With the power of Noor (Divine Light). With the power of the Spiritual Master.

When you become a disciple, you are in spiritual contact with your Spiritual Master. With his spiritual concentration, God’s name and divine light will not only enter your heart, but it will also enter your Nafs.

You will feel that you are not saying anything with your mouth and somebody inside your Nafs and somebody inside your heart is repeating God’s name. The more God’s name is repeated, the more Noor is created. The more Noor is created, the more purification will settle in. This is how it is done.

You have spoken a lot about Wahhabism. You strongly criticise it.

We see around the world people are becoming more conservative - or even extremist. Even if you take Sri Lanka as an example, you see Muslims becoming more conservative. So, some say that it is because before, we didn’t know how to be proper Muslims and now we are learning to be proper Muslims and that this is the proper method.

What do you think about this change, this movement?

It is such a wide and vast topic that you will have to come back again to speak on this subject. I can’t answer you in one minute because it is a long story.

Five minutes?

No, you cannot cover it in five minutes.

I can tell you a few things.

For example, they are saying, ‘This is the right way,’ but the same claim is made by Shias and the same claim is made by Barelvis. Who should we believe? Who is right?

They call each other Kafireen (infidels) and Mushrikeen (idol-worshippers).

Some people want to kiss the Prophet Mohammad’s name.* But others say, ‘No, this is Bidah (innovation in the religion). This is Shirk (appointing a partner with God).’

But then we saw: Adam Safi Allah did it.

When Adam Safi Allah did it, how can this be Bidah? How can this be Shirk?

I mean, for God’s sake, do you understand the meaning of Shirk? Let me tell you: Shirk means to appoint a partner with God. How are you appointing a partner with God by kissing Prophet Mohammad’s name?

This is silly, isn’t it?

You’re sending salutation and benediction upon Prophet Mohammad and you think this is Bidah. No, it’s not Bidah.

God says in the Quran, ‘O’ faithful ones: send salutations upon the Prophet Mohammad because God and his Malaika (Archangels) do the same.’

I am sending Salat-o-Salam (salutations and benedictions) on Prophet Mohammad and they think this is Bidah. What about God and his Malaika?

When I do it, it becomes Bidah. When God does it, do you think God is Biddati (one who innovates wrongly)? That’s wrong.

*Kissing one’s thumbs when saying the name of Prophet Mohammad is a common custom among Muslims who respect and love the Prophet Mohammad.

But why is extremism so attractive today especially to the youth?

It is attractive to them because of the teachings they are being given. The Wahhabi sect says, ‘We want pure Islam.’

According to them, pure Islam existed only at the time of Prophet Mohammad. After that time, whatever the interpretation of Shariah or Islam came to us from Aima like Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafay, Imam Ahmed bin Hambal and Imam Ans Bin Malik, [Wahhabis] reject it. Why do you reject it?

According to the Quran, God can cancel any of the verses of the Quran anytime and bring another one to replace it. Some of the verses of the Quran were abrogated even at the time of Prophet Mohammad.

So Islam is a very flexible religion. As the time passed, certain modifications were important to be made in the religion because the time has made. They were made by Mujaddideen (reformers) like Mujaddid Alif Thani. Why? Because the necessity and need of the time.

For example, there were no loudspeakers at the time of Prophet Mohammad. Bilal Habshi (ra) would stand on the roof of the mosque and give the call for prayer. Everybody would live close by. They were able to hear him.

But now if you say that inside the mosque, who will hear you? You need a loudspeaker. Some people call it Bidah. [They say] ‘Prophet Mohammad did not use a loudspeaker. Why are you using it?’

If you don’t use it, how will people hear you? If people don’t hear the call of prayer, they will not come. The purpose of the call of prayer is lost!

So you have to modify the Law of Sharia according to the time. [Wahhabis] don’t want to do it. They don’t want to follow.

Now, if you call [for] the Islam which was present at the Prophet Mohammad, then I tell you: this current shape of Quran in form of a book - Prophet Mohammad didn’t [compile it]. It was done by Abu Bakr Sadiq (ra). Then you have to quit Quran.

Yeah.

Because you said, ‘We will not accept anything after Prophet Mohammad’s demise.’ If you don’t accept anything after Prophet Mohammad’s demise, then you have to quit the Quran because the Quran [in its current shape] did not exist at that time. It was compiled by Abu Bakr Sadiq (ra).

Like, a hundred years after, yeah.

But what you say might anger a lot of people.

Because I am giving them the real reason.

There’s not a proper space to have a proper conversation in the Islamic community.

Islam is the most perfect religion, right?

Islam has knowledge of exterior and Islam has knowledge of interior. With the help of Islam, you become a better human being. And with the help of Islam, you were able to see God.

With the help of Islam, you were able to see Prophet Mohammad. I ask you a question: have you seen Prophet Mohammad?

No.

When you go into your grave as a Muslim, they will show to you an image of Prophet Mohammad and ask you, ‘Who is this?’

[You will say,] ‘Why are you asking me this question? I didn’t see him.’

Then why do they ask you [this question] in the grave?

Because with the help of the Batini Knowledge (Esoteric knowledge) of Islam -no matter you were born at the time of Prophet Mohammad or you were born yesterday - with the help of that knowledge you will be able to see Prophet Mohamad here.

They want to know in the grave whether you have that knowledge. 

Yup.

If you have that knowledge, you will recognise Prophet Mohammad. [You will say,] ‘Yes, I have seen him. He is my prophet.’

Yes.

But if you rejected the knowledge of spirituality all your life and said, ‘No, no, no; I don’t want this. This is Bidah. This is Haram (Prohibited). This is Shirk,’ then when you go into your grave, you won’t be able to recognise the image and you will fail immediately.

Why is it that we can’t have a proper dialogue within the Muslim community without causing uproar?

Because of the Nafs. When you are proved wrong and you cannot answer, you will use the weapon; [it is] intolerance.

If you are genuinely seeking to find the truth, then you will have a dialogue. If you are after God, not after conflict.

Some people are more into debate, discussion and going into a conflict to show power, strength. It is the battle of two Iblis; it is the battle of Nafoos (Egos) - and they call it ‘Islamic war’! That has nothing to do with Islam.

We tell people the real interpretation of the Quran; the real Islam with the help of which you will be able to love Prophet Mohammad, you will be able to see Prophet Mohammad, you will be able to love God and you will be able to embark upon Sirat ul Mustaqeem (The Straight Path leading towards God).

You know, from the same verse of the Quran which directs you to believe in Sufism, to seek help from God’s saints, these Wahhabis mislead you into another direction.

For example, God said, ‘Seek Sirat ul Mustaqeem.’ But what is Sirat ul Mustaqeem?

He didn’t reveal it. He said, ‘[Seek] the path of those whom I favoured my Nehmah.

You have to seek those people. He didn’t tell you what Sirat ul Mustaqeem is. Who are those people?

The Quran has the answer: Shohda, Sauleheen, Auliya and Ambiya. These are the people, and about them God said, ‘These are the best examples of Spiritual Masters.’

True Islam is Zahir and Batin.

For example, the first condition in Islam is ‘Iqrar ul bil-e-saan (vocalisation of faith by the tongue), tasdiq-un-bil-Qalb (affirmation of faith by the heart).’ Now, we’re only concerned about iqrar ul bil-e-saan; we don’t know what tasdiq-un-bil-Qalb is. What you say with your tongue, you heart should do the same.

Yeah.

Prophet Mohammad said, ‘My eyes sleep. My heart does not sleep.’

Obviously this is not a physical activity; if the [physical] heart sleeps, we will die. So it’s about spirituality.

The heart is awake when the heart is engaged in Dhikr Allah (Invocation of the Name of God).

You spoke about the need to modernise or change with the times. What about the role of women? Are women also involved in the spiritual journey? Why don’t you have female Imams?

Female Imams (clerics)? There are no Imams in spirituality.

What about female heads [in your organisation]?

We have heads as women, yes.

In Islam, you don’t see women at the forefront.

You have to differentiate between what people practise and what Islam says.

Islam does not put restrictions on women, right? I can give you an example: Prophet Mohammad’s wife Bibi Aisha - more than 300 000 Ahadith (Prophetic Traditions) are narrated by her. She was a teacher and she used to interpret the Quran; so we have this example from the household of the Prophet Mohammad.

If you go to a local Imam in a mosque and say, ‘What should women do? Should women teach Ahadith?’ and he says, ‘No, this is Haram; women cannot do it,’ I mean, this is his own understanding. However, we know the fact that if Prophet Mohammad’s wife narrated more than 300 000 Ahadith, you can understand the role of women.

What happened in between? In the Prophet’s time, women were pretty forward but today they’re not. They’re hidden behind the veil.

Because today’s Muslim does not love Prophet Mohammad. They are not in contact with Prophet Mohammad.

I tell you: the core of Islam is love of Mohammad (saw).

There is a Hadith (Prophetic Tradition) which says, ‘You will not become a Momin (true believer) unless you love me more than your parents and the entire humanity.’

When you are so in love with Prophet Mohammad, you have faith and you strictly follow what he says.

But, where did we go wrong? Why is the role of women - in Islam in particular - today so backward?

Well, this is only in Wahhabis that women are not given proper attention; women are not given any proper task. Whereas in Sufism, Rabia Basri was a saint of God and she was leading men.

Yes, but she was like the only one female Sufi saint which is really promoted. Where are the other female Sufi saints?

There are so many but they have not been given publicity.

Isn’t that a problem then, even in Sufism? The way women are not given [the same publicity]?

No, that’s not the same; it’s up to God.

I don’t think women are inferior to men; however it is up to God what he wants to give to whom.

For example, Prophet Mohammad’s daughter, Fatima: her spiritual status is far superior to many male saints.

So in the eyes of God - God can give anything to anybody.

They say that you are expecting a spiritual revolution.

We’re not expecting. We’re working on it.

Expecting is like, ‘Oh, when will it come?’ We’re working on it.

When do you expect it to take form?

If you are convinced [by] what I said today, we will be one step forward.

Would you still continue to believe in it given that we have wars every day and crisis after crisis?

War is the result of hatred.

You need to remove hatred and you cannot remove hatred with the help of hatred. Hatred must be replaced with love. Genuine love which comes from the heart.

Yeah.

The heart will only emanate love when it is guided and it is illuminated with God’s light (Noor).

So, do you really not think it’s an impossible task?

No, it’s not impossible. Nothing is impossible; if it is designed by God, it will have to happen.

How do you work without an end goal in sight?

No, this revolution is designed by God.

According to the Quran, the entire humanity will turn into Ummat-un-Wahida (One United Nation).

But when?

It is happening now.

It is happening now - but all we see is war and destruction.

You have never been a mother, right?

No.

Initially, when a woman becomes pregnant, she says, ‘Everything is normal. There is nothing here.’

But it takes time!

After a few weeks, she feels a little heavy. After a few months, people see, ‘Oh, yeah; she is heavy.’

It takes nine months to see the result.

The people who follow into this belief system are increasing in number day-by-day everywhere in this world.

Then a time will come when God wishes everything to happen in quick succession. Then the revolution will come about.

Do you expect it to happen within your own lifetime?

I don’t know when I [will] die; I don’t know the length of my life. So how can I predict that it will happen within my lifetime?

Do you know when you will die?

No. But what if it goes on forever and forever and we’re just waiting for a revolution?

No. There is not much time left. This revolution has to come within fifteen years.

How are you so particular about fifteen [years]?

I said, ‘within’.

But why fifteen?

First you asked me the number. You insisted on me to tell you the number; when I said the number, you asked me, ‘Why did you say that?’

There must be some logic to the number.

Yes, there is logic [to it]. The logic is that before the end of the world, Imam Mehdi (as) has to appear and Jesus Christ has to show up. All these things are not far.

You think that everything is normal out there but this will change overnight.

You believe it completely?

Yes, because I have seen it with the Eye of Certainty.

Okay, thank you.

Do you have a problem in predictions? Being a Muslim, you must believe Prophet Mohammad made predictions about 1400 years [in the future].

Yeah, I do.

He said things about something which would happen after 1400 years.

Yeah.

The Prophet Mohammad said, ‘Towards the end of the world a fire will emerge from Syria.’

It is one of the Ahadith. So, being a Muslim, you believe in what Prophet Mohammad predicted because he was told by God.

In a similar way, we are telling you predictions which God gave to Imam Mehdi.

But fifteen years is so close.

Yeah. Let’s see.

How many people would believe you if you said that the world is coming to an end in fifteen years?

I have said what I heard. If you believe or you don’t believe, it is none of my business. Isn’t it?

Yeah.

I mean, you will write this story. How many people will believe in your story? You have no control over it, have you?

No.

You will just write as a journalist.

In a similar way, as His Divine Eminence Gohar Shahi’s spokesman, I have to say the truth. I don’t care how many people believe and how many people reject it.

The truth is the truth whether you believe it or you don’t believe it.

I mean, Prophet Mohammad, Prophet Moses and Prophet Jesus - they delivered their message and they were not concerned how many people how many people believed and how many people didn’t believe in them. It did not affect their spiritual health also.

What do you expect to do within these fifteen years?

I want to speed up putting this message across different nations. I want to tell people about divine love and spirituality so that they learn to respect humanity and they find connection with God.

But then they die in fifteen years. What is the point?

Why?

When you die, you don’t stop living.

How can you say that as a Muslim?

This life is just like a small teaser. You’re going into eternal life after this. [Your life hereafter will depend on what you do in this life]. If you do good here, you will go into paradise; if you do bad here, you will go into hell. So we’re here for a test.

The test is how [much] we believe in God and his message and how rapidly we purify ourselves and get prepared for the beginning of the end.

Okay. Good luck!

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

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